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Post Info TOPIC: I'M A *#@!# ROOTING FAILURE!!!


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I'M A *#@!# ROOTING FAILURE!!!
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Please help!!!  furious I'm a rooting school failure.  I can't root.  I just can't.  I guess I can't reborn.  Wanna buy a bunch o' stuff disbelief ? 
Well, maybe not yet, but I'm getting discouraged. . .

I cannot get the needles to catch the mohair and pull it in. I've tried all kinds of needles, from German forked, barbed crown, felting, 38g up to 43g, 1 barb, 3 barb, 6 barb etc., etc. I've spent way too much money on needles!! Okay, I'll admit I do get some hair in, usually with a needle with 3 or 6 barbs, but I seems I only get a hair or two in once out of about 6 pokes that don't take the hair in. So I'll poke about 20 times and get about 5 hairs in. I could spend a lifetime on this rooting, and not have even one doll to show for my effort.

I've tried heating the head with a rice sock and not heating the head. I directionally angle the needles as instructed in the videos and stuff. And I'm using very high quality mohair from Slumberland, but darn it, THE NEEDLES JUST WON'T CATCH THE MOHAIR AND GO IN! What am I doing wrong. I really want to be able to do this.

Are you considered less than human if you don't "micro"???  Are  german forked supposed to be used just to end root?  Oh well, can't do that either.  I've seen some videos online that show people just holding the mohair horizontally across the heads and stabbing really fast - the instructions are to "hold the hair horizontally and then stab really quick about 50 times!"  I'm sure that must work, but it doesn't look very nice, and I don't get much in that way either.

My poor babies, they have lots of holes in their heads. I'm afraid one of these days the next poke I make will join up with a previous poke hole or two and the head will disintegrate.

What am I doing wrong???
Signed,
Desperate in Seattle
(aka Poppy)




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Oh GOOD!!! I'm not the only one!

I hope someone has some good suggestions, because I sure don't. :(

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smiletrust me you'll get the hand of it , your just feeling a bit down. i love rooting and still have issues with it. i recently went to finish poor pricilla and couldn't find my 46's used a 40 that poor baby she looks like a platnium gnome.....the bfs words.....lol.....antway hang in there it'll be worth it................sage  aww

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Hang in there the more you do it the better you will get, good luck.smile

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Sorry guys, but I'm a failure in the reborn world. Oh yeah, I painted my three babies beautifully, I'm really proud of them. But as for the rooting - I should be shot. Don't deserve to live. Can you tell I'm bummed. I'm about ready to chuck the whole shebang.

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Oh hun, I feel for you. Have you tried the search feature and put in rooting? We have many, many, many.... threads for that. You are NOT a failure and you are NOT alone!

First of all, I did do at least 2 posts on how to hold the needles. Second, YOU DO NOT STAB OR GO FAST! I'm sorry that you found somewhere where they go fast. It's slow and steady wins the race hun, just like the tortouse and the hare.

I used to lay the hair across the head, then hold each end like with my first and ring fingers, take the point of the needle and put it in the middle of the hair bunch and slide some hairs sideways, then poke the tip in the head. That way it was secure and I could feel when the barb in the needle pulled a hair in. I have now graduated to how Stephanie Sullivan holds her bunch of hair to root, by the end. But I still don't go fast and don't stab into the head.
Do you have the rooting DVD from Secrist?

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No, I've spent way too much money on all this stuff already. Dolls, paint, eyes, lashes (which I can't get on), cable ties, glass beads, aquarium gravel (which I tried first, but got questioned at the airport security place, but I was okay) polyfill, mohair, needles, brushes, Maxine's mops (I hope she gets a comission), odorless thinner, bottles for odorless thinner and purple stuff, sponges, 2 DVD's, more needles, more mohair, etc., etc. You get the picture. Can't spend any more money on all this. I am despairing right now. Perhaps I should just go to bed.

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Oh, I was wondering how Stephanie Sullivan holds her bunch to root, but I found out that I can only learn that if I put out another $47.00 plus shipping!

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Poppy, we all learn by our mistakes, sometimes you get a bunch of hair in, other times, nothing, best for you to get more and then tweezer out what you dont want. With the thinner needle you will leave less of a hole, but by heating it with a rice sack it sould be small as the heat makes it back to the original shape. I know, I got Kaya from BB's and her head was way out of shape, I contacted them and they told me to boil her as it makes it go back to original shape. That worked. DONT give up. The old saying if at first you dont succeed, TRY>>>>> Ask Pat, I was used to painting with other products, other than Genesis and was frightened to use another new medium, I did and it is so good to use. XXXXX June.

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Poppycat wrote:

Oh, I was wondering how Stephanie Sullivan holds her bunch to root, but I found out that I can only learn that if I put out another $47.00 plus shipping!



Here is the link to the rooting dvd hun. It's $19.95 http://www.secristdolls.com/inc/sdetail/6361 
Take a look at the cover of the dvd, look at the bottom right baby and someone's hand holding a bunch of hairs. That is how Stephanie holds hers. It was hard for me to do until just recently and I've been rooting my reborns for over 5 years. Everyone has their own way to root, to hold the tool, what tool they like, etc. I used a rubber band wound around the end of the needle as a tool when I first started rooting. I sometimes will switch back to that now and then. Silly I know, but it's what I learned with. There were no fancy needle handles at that time, or if there were, I couldn't afford them. I also held my needle at the wrong angle (my first baby's hair stood up on end, couldn't get it to lay down) lol. I went faster than i do now too, and that is why on my first head I broke about 8-10 needles. I used to lay the hair bunch across the head, hold one end with my index finger, the other end with my ring finger, then root in between my fingers. You have no idea how many times I poked myself! I thought I'd never figure it out.
Don't tell anyone but... I still have not mastered the German forked no barb needle. I get alllll holes and no hairs!!! Frustrating but it will not beat me!

Sorry I'm so long winded but I wanted you (and others) to know that it can be done. Otherwise, there are wispy clear cap wigs that you can get for your baby. But I wouldn't give up just yet. Relax, go slow, maybe look under a magnafying glass while rooting. Take a close -up look at your needle. See what it really looks like.

So take a break for a day or two, relax, don't think about reborning. Not everyone gets the hang of rooting, and expecially not right away. It can be an expensive hobby, or business, I know.

 



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thank you everyone. I'm sorry, but I'm just in a real bummer, downer and self-hating mood and I guess I just overflowed on to all of you. I'm gonna go take a bath and breathe, and put all doll stuff away for a while.

But I am going to make one more post on Misc.

Love, Poppy

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smile   you could also try giveing baby painted hair or go bald for awhile ........lol.......the painted hair is fun to do and gives you a nice break from rooting. alot of gals are lightly painting hair and then lightly rooting over it. i've done painted hair on 1 baby and while being my first effort it didn't look to bad . you can find babies to practice on at thirt store or yard sale for not to much. you use the paints you have or prismcolor pencils ...........but don't give up ,you know your fab at painting so quiting would be throwing the baby out with the bath water.....lol....................sage   aww

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Go Sage! Yes, you can even have a bald baby. That is what I intended for little Sweetie Pie and he has a good head for that. But I eventually thought that with those beautiful brown eyes he needed some hair.

Yes, maybe try painted hair. There are tutorials on that now. Or pencil in the hair (but then you have to buy the Prismacolor pencils). Just breathe hun, and it will come when you least expect it.
HUGS

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I found that the best technique to root is being relaxed. When I'm stressed out, I'm making way too many mistakes and break my needles.
Also, mushroom tool has been very helpful, ever since I got one, I didn't break a single needle.

Whenever I lose my concentration, I stop rooting.

I hope you're doing better, let us know :)

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I LOVE my mushroom tool! I prefer the plastic handle with the uncut needles rather than the wooden one with cut. I find that rooting relaxes me. My hubby thinks it's too tedious to make someone relax. lol

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i too have problems with the forked needles, no matter how i position them i get no hair, i root at the moment by putting the thin strip of hair across the head, and poke, but i take care, going to fast you get to much hair in a bunch and are likely to brake needles, i use crown needles, i did consider painting so maybe this is the root for you to try... don't give up xx

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Lol I've got trouble with too much hair staying inside :) 42 needles, 40 crown... 38 crown (I think)... I don't remember ever getting just one hair, it's mostly 2-5 hairs each time!

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I've not used crown needles. I use the 42 g from Secrist. They seem to do well by me. Not too much hair (about 2 per poke) and they are more sturdy than the others. I usually dull the needle before I break it. :)

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Rooting is not that hard once you get the hang of it, but it does take time to learn how, but it is worth the effort! I started with 42 forked needles, filled two heads with holes and very little hair, but eventually, I learned how to hold the needle right and get that hair in. If you're buying a reborn tutorial, I would highly reccommend the one by Precious Little Baby Dust. Also, at some point, possibly next spring, I will be teaching a rooting class in Washington, not sure about where yet. So maybe that could help you!

P.S. I live in Central WA, in a tiny town called Zillah.

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 Wow!  I'm amazed.  I started this topic way back in January, and it has resurfaced.  That's great.  I've done a few dolls now, and I'm getting better.  But rooting is such a slow process that I'm hiring someone to do my latest preemie.   The rooting I have been best at has been with a 43g single barb needle, and I've tried them ALL!!!  If you hold the needle and hair correctly it works very well.  The barb should point to 7 o'clock, and the very end of the bent over part of the handle should almost poke at your right thumb (I use uncut needles and I don't use a needle holder so I can always know where that end is.  Not poke INTO your thumb of course.  And I've found that the quality of the mohir really, really makes a difference.

ANDREA, I'm excited about your class.  When you get it together be sure to let me know.  I'll be there for sure.  I've never been to Zilah.  Anywhere near Silverdale?



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Oooh, I'm so jealous at all your classes, all the kits you can buy in USA... all the reborning stuff... As far as I know, I'm the only one that's doing reborns in Croatia, and it's VERY hard to get everything I need... I'm still having troubles in finding the right thinner for my GHSPs... :) And let me tell you, hunting down all the supplies at reasonable prices lasted about three months. Gotta say I'm proud of myself, now I have almost everything I need lol :)

And as far as rooting goes, I think I'm doing okay with it generally, but making a swirl... now THAT'S a challenge :D

And yes, I've poked through my thumb, my index finger and my left palm (today!). Must be that I got used to those hard "practice dolls" vinyl and now everything softer is just too soft for me hahah :)

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Thanks for all the input ladies! Yes, this thread resurfaces now and again. I will try to see about that rooting dvd. I think Stephanie Sullivan (Secrist rooting dvd) is coming out with one of her own soon. I think she's written a tutorial book too on reborning.
I used to just hold the needle with no mushroom tool or anything and it worked ok. Then tried it with the rubber band on the end, that was ok too. But when I found the plastic mushroom tool from Secrist, I was hooked. It just fits my hand so well. I still just use the needle alone when I root 6" mini's or preemies but for the rest I use the tool. I still can't master that darned no-barb needle, no matter what I read but I WILL one of these days.

I think it's great that you will be offering a rooting class Andrea. I just rooted another head for Secrist and the price is going up. :) Maybe I'll have to do straight rooting for clients now instead of reborning. lol.

If you are in Croatia and are having a problem getting a hold of thinner for the paints, you have 2 choices hun...
1. Order the Genesis thinning medium and use that with your paints. It is made specifically for the paints and I believe since it is not liquid it will ship to you.
2. Buy the pre-mixed AR paints and you don't need thinner with them. They are already thinned to the perfect translucent mix.

If you do go with the Genesis thinning medium, order the 4oz jar and only use 40% thinning medium with the paints. More will create issues with curing.

Yes, I have poked on the hard practice doll heads too. lol you definately have to go softer with the nice Secrist vinyl. Sometimes I do still need a "rice sock" to heat the head with though. :)

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I tried the thinning medium and it's okay for mottling and lips, but a bit thick for everything else. I'm using an oil thinner for regular oil paints and it thins the paints, but I need to bake it several times before it sticks to the vinyl. Maybe terpentine would be better?

Sorry for the offtopic :)

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What craft/artist supply stores do you have in your country? Maybe I can help locate some thinner for you that would work.

Only problem with using "an oil thinner" is that it changes the molecular structure of the paints and may make it so that it is not permanent, especially since you said you have to bake the layers several times. You may want to contact Genesis directly to ask them what is compatable and what you have available. I say "when it doubt, go to the source"!
What we call "turpentine" here in the states is actually solvent so I guess I don't consider that to be an option with the paints. Maybe it's considered something else where you live?

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Thank you Buffi for all your suggestions! If everything else fails, I'll look up to see what can I buy here, and ask the Genesis people what could be compatible with their paints.

I spoke to the man working in one of the art shops the other day, and he offered to help me find the right thinner, I just need to show him the paints. I'll probably visit him sometime this week.
Also, I've found out that my heat gun is working better with my paints than my oven. Maybe my oven is not really baking at 130°C at all? I should soon get my oven thermometer, and see if that might be the problem. At this point I don't dare heat it up because I'd rather have unpainted than melted doll :)

Turpentine is a solvent here, too, but it's used with some kinds of oil paints. Someone suggested a "odorless turpentine", but I didn't try that yet.

Ah yes, one of the biggest art stores here is "Chemaco", but all they could offer me was a very, very strong solvent by "Marabu" that turned my Genesis paints into goo :))) Luckily, I didn't use too much, and now I only use it to fix some major mistakes on my dolls :)

The other store I'm fond of is "NB Hobby&Art" - they are the ones that suggested odorless turpentine.

Oooh, I'm feeling so baaad for crashing this great topic. I promise my next post will be about rooting :)

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But isn't "odorless thinner" actually the same as - "odorless turpentine"  I think it would work just fine.  Do you have hardware stores in Croatia?  I'm sure they have thinner there for the oil based paint they sell.  And artist's in Croatia must use thinner for oil paintings.  I'm sure you will be able to find it.



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I'm sure I can find something too, just need to extend my search :)
And yes, we do have hardware stores here, that's where I find my cable ties and many other thingies for my Fimo figurines and jewelery :)



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I'm working a double shift today at work but I'll try to get you some information on the Genesis paints for the guy who will be helping you hun. The heat set paints are not oil, nor are they acrylic. I think that is why they say not to use "oil" paint thinners with them. I'll see what I can find for you for information. Probably won't be till Friday as I will prob be exhausted from a double shift :O

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Buffi, you're wonderful!

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Ok, I've been working my butt off at work with lots of hours. Sorry. I'll try to get that Genesis info on here after I get back here, I actually got 4 days off in a row (woohoo!) and we are going away for 3 of those. Sorry I've been so not here. HUGS

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Hey! I think I found a good thinner-paint ratio. I experimented a bit and the colors seem to stick better now :) Also, my oven thermometer arrived today, can't wait to try it out, still need to work a bit on my Kadence. I discovered a new technque that worked wonderfully on my Berenguer Rosebud and I think I'll use it on all my reborns :) It's very simple actually, I just put a lot of small flesh coloured dots on my babies legs and arms after blushing and mottling. It toned down the red colour and gave it a nice, realistic look, Before that "finishing touch" he looked too plain. He's also the first doll I gave eyelashes. I just love him! Oh, and I love you new avatar! She is a beautiful little girl :)

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Can't wait to see how he comes out hun. Be sure to post pics in the artist showcase so we can all see what you did!

Thanks for the compliment on my granddaughter. Yes, she is an absolute doll :D
Here is some info from the Genesis website:
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FAQ from Genesis (the heat-set paint company)

Can I mix it with oils?

No. We have not found an oil that mixes with Genesis® Artist Colors

Can I mix it with acrylics?

No. As with oils, we have not found an acrylic that mixes with Genesis® Artist Colors.

Is it water soluble? Is it water or solvent based?

Genesis® Artist Colors are neither water nor solvent based, but solvents may be used to thin and clean. They are only water soluble with soap and water for clean up.

Do I have to use solvents? What solvent is required for cleaning brushes?

No solvent is required. You can use various Genesis Mediums to alter the flow characteristics. Rubbing alcohol is an excellent cleaner, or warm water and soap such as Dawn® dishwashing detergent. Of course, it is not mandatory to clean brushes because the paint wont dry on them.

I am allergic to solventsCan I use Genesis® Artist Colors?

Yes because there are no solvents in Genesis® Artist Colors. (this is paints straight from Genesis, but Secrist has some mixed with... ie their AR paints, etc).

Is it archival?

The carrying medium and pigments were developed to give Genesis® Artist Colors strong archival qualities.

Is it lightfast? What are the lightfastness ratings?

Pigments are selected for their very high lightfastness ratings.

If I get primaries and secondaries, can I mix all of the colors myself?

Yes. All of the line is available in single colors, as well as in color systems.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Using Other Mediums with Genesis

Mixing Genesis® Artist Colors with solvents commonly used for oil paints is not recommended. However, if you use solvents, remember to protect yourself and follow the directions including the use of protective clothing such as gloves. Genesis® Artist Colors are not water soluble for mixing and thinning.

This is important, so we repeat: Genesis® Artist Colors are not intended to be mixed with other paints such as oils or acrylics or with water. Other mediums have a very different chemistry than Genesis® Artist Colors and results can be unpredictable.

After you have heated Genesis® Artist Colors, allow a few minutes for cooling before applying the next layer. After a few minutes of cooling, the paint becomes firm yet still quite flexible.

Not Oil or Acrylic

Genesis® Artist Colors are a new paint chemistry, called "Heat Set Artist Oils." Genesis is an artist quality fine-art paint that is ready to apply without repeated pre-mixing and will not dry until you are ready; then it dries very quickly.

Genesis® Artist Colors offer fine control in mixing, blending and application, and can be worked in many states without the addition of mediums. They are very similar to oil paints in feel, opacity and translucence. We encourage you to experiment with your style to achieve the desired effect.

Genesis® Artist Colors stay wet until heated, making them more convenient than oils or acrylics. The paint will not dry when left in the open on a non-porous surface. It is important to use a glass or other non-porous surface such as china, polished marble or porcelain for your palette.

Other paints have very different chemistries from Genesis® Artist Colors. Do not mix Genesis® Artist Colors with other oils or acrylics because the results are unpredictable.

Since Genesis® Artist Colors do not air dry, you do not have to clean your brushes even if you will not get back to painting for days, weeks or even months. When cleaning brushes for quick color changes, simply wipe off excess paint, swirl in rubbing alcohol, wipe and repeat. The alcohol quickly cleans and evaporates out of the cleaned brush. You may also clean brushes by using warm water and soap, such as Dawn® dishwashing detergent. Dry your brushes thoroughly after cleaning.

While Genesis® Artist Colors can be thinned or cleaned with solvents commonly used with oil paints such as paint thinner, turpenoid and mineral spirits, these solvents are not necessary. Most artists prefer rubbing alcohol or non-toxic Genesis Thinning Medium. Genesis® Art Colors are not water soluble.

Certified Non-Toxic

Genesis® Artist Colors are certified nontoxic and conform to ASTM D-4236. They are certified in a program of toxicological evaluation by a medical expert to contain no material in sufficient quantities to be toxic or injurious to humans or to cause acute or chronic health problems.

Background

Oil colors have been available to artists for five centuries. Recent decades brought the advent of acrylics and alkyds. Watercolors evolved from temporary weak paints to having longevity never before dreamed possible. The latest advancement is Genesis® Artist Colors Heat Set Artist Oils.

Developed and patented by professional artists, Genesis® Artist Colors offer the look and feel of traditional oils without the drying time restrictions, toxicity and odor. Genesis® Artist Colors contain a heat activated curing agent that allows for on-demand drying.

However, since they are a completely new medium, in spite of the similarities to regular oils, they also have special characteristics of which the artist can take advantage.

One of the characteristics of Genesis® Artist Colors is that they are thixotropic, therefore although they may be thick and like stiff paste in the jar, it only takes a little stirring or mixing with the spatula, for them to become soft and malleable. Application by brush is done very easily at this point. This painting technique can be used without having to add any thinning or other mediums.

This information pertains to "all heat-set paints" since they are all made by the same manufacturer, but for different doll places such as Secrist, BB, DBS, ect.

Hope this helps :D



-- Edited by Buffington on Thursday 27th of October 2011 07:11:14 PM

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Pat, good to see you!

Thanks for the info, it's been very helpful!

I managed to get me some Genesis thinning medium, it's not suitable for all the painting I'm doing because it's so thick, but in combination with that oily thinner, it's working out pretty good :)
Also, I don't put the doll in the oven right away after painting, I wait for it to dry a bit, and then bake - works better that way :)

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Thanks hun. I've been working a lot of hours. Sorry I haven't been in here much in the last week or so. I'll try to get better, back to the old way lol.
I was hoping this would help you out. Lots of info I know. Are you stirring the medium and the paints before using them? This is what you would do with "all" the heat-set products. It not only works better but makes them go farther.

Its good not to put your parts in the oven right away as like you said, it works better. It gives the thinner time to evaporate and the paints to settle a bit.

Ok, well I'm off to work soon here. Eating breakfast and waiting for my sister-in-law to call me at 8 AM! She called my house 3 times and called a friend of mine trying to track me down. Don't know what she wants so urgently but I guess I'll find out in about 10 minutes. lol

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I didn't stir the medium or the paints before using them, gotta try that! :)

Honestly, I had no idea I'll fall in love with this creative form so quickly. I'm all about kits, paints, baby clothes and mohair now :)

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hehehe... me tooooo!

__________________

We are the most critical of our own works!
 
Current avatar: Hayden sculpt

 www.timelesstreasurebabiesnursery.mysite.com

Pat B. --
Forum Sr. Moderator
Secrist and AV Dealer
Secrist Factory Certified Teacher

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